Is this a Lesser Redpoll?

[Joseph Morlan]

I am starting to review photos from a recent visit. Is this a juvenile Lesser Redpoll?

https://fog.ccsf.edu/~jmorlan/NewZealan ... G_5333.htm

Thanks in advance.

[Mxyzptlk]

The sole Redpoll in New Zealand is the Common Redpoll Carduelis flammea i.e. not Carduelis carbaret the Lesser Redpoll.

[Joseph Morlan]

Thanks. My understanding from HANZAB is that most/all of the Redpolls introduced in New Zealand are of the former race C. f. cabaret which is now split by Clements/eBird, HBW and BOU as a separate species under the name Lesser Redpoll. However this split does not yet appear to be recognized by IOC or by H&M.

Reference
Clement, P. (2017). Lesser Redpoll (Carduelis cabaret). In: del Hoyo, J., Elliott, A., Sargatal, J., Christie, D.A. & de Juana, E. (eds.). Handbook of the Birds of the World Alive. Lynx Edicions, Barcelona. (retrieved from http://www.hbw.com/node/61362 on 21 January 2017).

[Oscar Thomas]

There is definitely some dispute about which species/subspecies is the one in NZ.

[Grahame]

Thank You Joseph, you saved me the trouble. However, if anyone wants to read more, the subject was very well aired on this forum a couple of years ago, see the link below.

http://www.birdingnz.net/forum/search.p ... l&start=20

[Joseph Morlan]

Thanks, but I wasn't arguing taxonomy. I was just trying to determine if the bird in my photo can be confidently identified as a Lesser Redpoll. EBird has only a couple of Lesser Redpoll records in NZ. The rest are listed under Common Redpoll. I thought my bird had features favoring Lesser Redpoll, but I'm not sure they work for juveniles.

[Jan]

Yes I think it's a Redpoll juv. Does it matter which species? There is only one in NZ. They are introduced so it's not like the one it isn't is going to turn up.

[Joseph Morlan]

Thanks. My understanding is that both Lesser and Common Redpolls have been recorded in NZ so I would say it does matter which species. Apparently both species were introduced or at least some birds resembling both species have been reported. Also both species are reported in NZ by eBird but I suspect many of the Common Redpoll reports may actually pertain to Lesser. This issue is not well treated in field guides probably because the two have only recently been split. I have personally standardized on Clements/eBird and would like to get this right.

[Ian Southey]

I suspect we have not followed the latest taxonomies here in NZ. In our books they are Commons, British birders have told me they are actually Lessers but no one is seriously suggesting two kinds may be found here. What I have read suggests this is probably all a fuss about nothing as all the redpolls should actually be lumped e.g. http://www.10000birds.com/enjoy-your-re ... y-last.htm. There has been some work done on them here but note that our birds are introduced, may not be purely from one population and there may have been some local evolution. I know from my own observations, for instance, that western Fiordland birds are more often Orangepolls than Redpolls.

But its your list so pick a taxonomic opinion that suits you and make your own identification according to that. It seems like you have all the material you need. As should be clear that we can't really help you with this - most sophisticated redpoll watchers live in the northern hemisphere - and in fact the whole discussion may be moot. If you end up in a position to enlighten us further, please do.

Ian

[Joseph Morlan]

Thanks. I asked the NZ eBird reviewers about the redpoll situation. Redpoll taxonomy is unsettled. The official NZ checklist recognizes only Common Redpoll. This treatment conflicts with Clements/eBird. For now eBird is fixing their filters to allow either Common or Lesser Redpolls in NZ reports pending eventual resolution of redpoll taxonomy. Formerly only Common Redpoll was allowed while Lesser Redpoll was flagged as unusual with details required.

Meanwhile, I'll provisionally call my bird a Lesser Redpoll which is what I think it likely is. Whether Lesser Redpoll is a good species or even a good subspecies remains controversial.

Thanks again.