Falcon Encounter

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David Riddell
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Re: Falcon Encounter

Postby David Riddell » Fri May 18, 2018 10:06 am

Ah yes, Ken Ham's "Were you there?" argument, an oldie but a goodie. :D

Science is like police work - detectives don't have to have an eyewitness account to work out what happened at a crime scene when they've got other forms of forensic evidence like fingerprints, ballistics and DNA. Similarly scientists can work out what happened in the past using fossils, DNA evidence, biogeography etc - it's not necessary for them to see it for themselves.
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boneywhitefoot
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Re: Falcon Encounter

Postby boneywhitefoot » Fri May 18, 2018 10:26 am

amazing eh.
forensic evidence like fingerprints, ballistics and DNA all wonderful tools where you have direct comparisons.
do you see the difference?

you have no transitional fossils where dinosuars become birds.
there should be so many examples, I'm being serious here, there SHOULD be heaps.
we should see heaps of transitional types as the respiratory systems are changing from one system into a completely different one.
Transitions from scales to feathers all should be everywhere as birds are so numerous.
You have but a few such possibilities, all that have been discredited.
In some ways I dont have a dog in this hunt as from a Christian worldview if Dinos did evolve into birds, it does no damage to my worldview at all.

birds have eggs, dinos have eggs dino are gone, birds must have come from dinos.
what came first the dino or the egg ??????
Boney Whitefoot Photography
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David Riddell
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Re: Falcon Encounter

Postby David Riddell » Fri May 18, 2018 11:51 am

No, I really don 't see the difference. DNA of living animals can be directly compared against other living animals, and then the DNA picture can be compared against the one provided by the fossils. So, for example, it can be shown that the DNA of crocodiles is closer to that of birds than it is to komodo dragons'. This would have been predicted from the fossil evidence, which indicates that birds and crocodiles both belong to, or are descended from, the Archosaurs, whereas Komodo dragons and other lizards belong to a different reptilian group.

There are actually lots of fossils documenting the transition of non-avian dinosaurs to birds, mostly from China - see for example http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/05/ ... dern-birds

Here's an article on the early evolution of feathers, the molecular basis of the transformation, and modern traces of the intermediate stages - https://www.nationalgeographic.com/maga ... evolution/

And as for the respiratory systems, dinosaurs had a system that was very similar to that of birds - https://www.nature.com/news/2005/050711 ... 711-8.html. It's lucky for your worldview that it doesn't depend on birds not evolving from dinosaurs, because if it was, it would be in serious trouble.

In a desperate attempt to get this thread back on topic, have to say I liked your picture of a falcon at Poolburn - brought back happy memories of the final morning of the last millennium, which I spent beside Poolburn Reservoir, having breakfast while watching a pair of falcons who were perched on a nearby rock, watching me back.
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boneywhitefoot
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Re: Falcon Encounter

Postby boneywhitefoot » Fri May 18, 2018 12:29 pm

ok lets break this down David
Example 1 DNA and forensic evidence .
what is going on here is we take dna signatures from a crime most likely off a victim and compare them with suspects and when we have a match we most likely have out criminal
this has NOTHING even close to what you are proposing in your statement
the dna tell you NOTHING about what the criminal looks like or looked like. your use of forensic dna evidence is off the planet

Example number 2 fingerprints exactly the same David

Example number 3 ballistics
you take a bullet from a crime scene and when you think you have the gun that fired it you fire the gun and compare for matching marks.
your example are so misleading, you're comparing a real science that is repeatable and directly observable and repeated over and over again in real time.
do you see what you did?

as for this And as for the respiratory systems, dinosaurs had a system that was very similar to that of birds
Really ????
Birds have a flow through type system do they not ?
what system, did dinosaurs have? isnt it a bellow system???

this is the arrogance that pervades in the scientific halls of shame ""This work is another nail in the coffin for that competing theory," says Barrett."
does it really?
Boney Whitefoot Photography
https://boneywhitefoot.wordpress.com/
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David Riddell
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Re: Falcon Encounter

Postby David Riddell » Fri May 18, 2018 2:20 pm

Just read the articles Tony, especially the last one about the respiratory systems - no, dinosaurs did not have a bellows system.

With DNA studies of animal relationships, species are compared one against the other, looking for similarities, and differences. The more the similarities and the fewer the differences, the more closely related the species are. The pattern that's derived can then be compared against the pattern suggested by the fossil record. The two match remarkably well - what EO Wilson called "consilience". When you have two independent lines of evidence, both telling the same story, that leads to far greater confidence than can be attained by one set of evidence on its own.

Obviously the use of DNA in forensics is not the same as in evolutionary studies - I never said they were. I was simply pointing out that it's entirely possible to draw conclusions about what's happened in the past by studying lines of evidence other than eyewitness reports.
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boneywhitefoot
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Re: Falcon Encounter

Postby boneywhitefoot » Fri May 18, 2018 4:16 pm

"Obviously the use of DNA in forensics is not the same as in evolutionary studies - I never said they were. I was simply pointing out that it's entirely possible to draw conclusions about what's happened in the past by studying lines of evidence other than eyewitness reports."
I still think your mixing to completely different methods and passing them off as the same.
many crimes are solved without eyewitness reports.
and I do like that you use the word conclusions.

I might get back to you on the lungs though.
Boney Whitefoot Photography
https://boneywhitefoot.wordpress.com/
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boneywhitefoot
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Re: Falcon Encounter

Postby boneywhitefoot » Fri May 18, 2018 4:29 pm

here is something to consider regarding feathers, not that you will but Im posting it anyway for those willing to consider the information provided
your link

Here's an article on the early evolution of feathers, the molecular basis of the transformation, and modern traces of the intermediate stages - https://www.nationalgeographic.com/maga ... evolution/

my link
https://creation.com/feathery-flight-of-fancy

your link Here's an article on the early evolution of feathers, the molecular basis of the transformation, and modern traces of the intermediate stages - https://www.nationalgeographic.com/maga ... evolution/

My link
https://creation.com/dinos-breathed-like-birds
Boney Whitefoot Photography
https://boneywhitefoot.wordpress.com/
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zarkov
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Re: Falcon Encounter

Postby zarkov » Fri May 18, 2018 4:49 pm

Give it a rest.

Most people here believe in evolution, not mumbo jumbo..
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boneywhitefoot
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Re: Falcon Encounter

Postby boneywhitefoot » Fri May 18, 2018 5:33 pm

well there we have the true scientific response dont we.
the tyranny of the majority.

dont try and address the information in the articles I provided like I did you guys.
next thing you have to be an evolutionist to truly love birds conservation and nature lol
if you guys want to post-evolutionary information on this site then be prepared to defend it in a non-aggressive respectful way.
David and I are one such example.
we would and have never attacked each others person.
well I have called him very old but we have observational scientific proof to back that up.
Boney Whitefoot Photography
https://boneywhitefoot.wordpress.com/
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zarkov
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Re: Falcon Encounter

Postby zarkov » Fri May 18, 2018 7:42 pm

boneywhitefoot wrote:well there we have the true scientific response dont we.
the tyranny of the majority.

dont try and address the information in the articles I provided like I did you guys.
next thing you have to be an evolutionist to truly love birds conservation and nature lol
if you guys want to post-evolutionary information on this site then be prepared to defend it in a non-aggressive respectful way.
David and I are one such example.
we would and have never attacked each others person.
well I have called him very old but we have observational scientific proof to back that up.


The "articles" you refer to are nothing but echo chambers intended for people such as yourself, and have no connection with valid science.

Arguing about evolution with creationists is like debating the merits of vaccination with anti-vaxxers.

It's pointless, all it does is give them a forum they don't deserve, and nothing anyone says is going to change their beliefs.

Evolution is the science that's accepted in this forum, and others like it, and if you don't start from that common ground you're wasting everyone's time.

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