Names : Why are NZers so steadfastly alternative

[Shane McPherson]

Janie, I totally agree. It is just one of New Zealand's ingrained naming atrocities. One (I) could go on for a long time about the misnaming of species in New Zealand.

The Harrier is definitely among the top ranked, and I believe "Harrier Hawk" is a link that is being used to bridge the layperson gap between 'hawk' and 'harrier'. Hawk being a general term for raptors - specifically Buteo and Accipiter in the USA, although British go a bit further to seperate the Accipiter 'Hawks' from the Buteo 'Buzzards'. Seeing theres such a paucity of raptors in NZ there has been little need to be more specific. I had often got blank stares from people when trying to describe some behavior or feature about the Harrier ... whats that? Hopefully one day I can drop the Hawk bit and folks will understand.

Other species I find irritatingly misnamed include

High country farmers often refer to the falcon as Sparrowhawk. Grrr.
Grey Warbler ... its not an Old world Warbler. The aussies properly name the many species of the group by its genus: Gerygone. (say geri-gone-ee).
Hmmm, but we both handle the Petrocia's as Robins (or Pied Tit/Tomtit) (although to be fair on the aussies, they have to lump several similar robin-like genera together).

I understand some species have New Zealand specific names to avoid confusion. Of particular example is not calling out Red-billed Gull a Silver Gull (current debate on species/sub-species status notwithstanding??) because of the similarities with, and more silvery appearance of, the Black-billed Gull . Also I prefer Pacific Black Duck to Grey Duck, but someone recently alerted me to how the layperson would confuse this with a Scaup - what with it being black and all.

Probably what grates me the most is Spur-winged Plover. Afraid the Aussies have it again. Being in the Vanellus genus its (some would say properly) called Masked Lapwing (sorry Spur-winged Lapwing is taken - its an african species Vanellus spinosus). Definitely far more straighfoward, especially considering all the problems we get into when trying to figure out what a 'plover' is. Internationally, plover refers to the Charadrius group, and therefore, again when a Banded Dotterel turns up on an Australian beach it is named Double-banded Plover. Cousin to Mongolian and Greater Sand Plover. Could our NZ Dotterel become NZ Plover?

I do hope the new checklist will incorporate many of these international naming systems. Kiwis trying to be different while the world laughs at us being 'cute' and 'isolated' all the way down there in the bottom of the pacific. Ahhh, finally an opening to go on one of my nomenclature rants. Apologies to all, comments appreciated.

Shane

[Rewi]

Kiwis trying to be different while the world laughs at us being 'cute' and 'isolated' all the way down there in the bottom of the pacific. Ahhh, finally an opening to go on one of my nomenclature rants. Apologies to all, comments appreciated.

Wow, sure was a helluva rant.

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That sounded rather like one of Rewi's broadsides! Good on yer, mate.
Very dodgy ground though, suggesting that we might do something better than
we already do. They'll tear you to pieces. But I'm sorry to say that bit about
trying to be different while the world laughs at us is often very true. And we
seem to react to that by getting even more bizarre in our behaviour. That's
what we do best, innit?
In addition to using old vernacular 'settler' names, we now have the politically
correct gang, who like to gradually substitute former Maori terms from back
in the mists of time, and insist on using these terms on international discussion
forums on the web, where obviously nobody knows what the hell they're talking about.
Or how about the 'helpful' bird reports that we put up on Yahoo's news groups, where
we deliberately give only half the directions and use localised names for places
that you'd only know if you'd lived in the village all your life? Very useful, eh?
It's all BS, but it IS deliberate, and it's what makes us Kiwi birders. All cuddly
and cutesome. I know I am, I saw myself in the mirror this morning.
Mmmmmmm...... handsome!
Rewi

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[Graham Saunders]

Kiwis trying to be different while the world laughs at us being 'cute' and 'isolated' all the way down there in the bottom of the pacific.

That reminds me of the three stages of self-consciousness:
When we are young, we tend not to do things because we are worried people will think of us... In middle age we don't care what people think of us... It's only in old age that we realize that no one was thinking of us anyway!

... Shane, you must be a youngster.

[Shane McPherson]

Quote Graham Saunders from Yahoo Group

"But Shane, the Americans call their 'new world warblers' warblers when they are not. And what about their sparrows? And half their martins and called 'swallow'. And as for their Robin - it's a ***** thrush! ... And anyway isn't the fact that a practice is adopted by the Australians reason enough for Kiwis to reject it?"

No doubt the Americans have brought plenty of their European traditions to the new world and named groups on those biases. I agree with the robin/thrush comment. But martins, The Tree and Fairy are currently Hirundo genus. I be happy to adopt Tree Swallow and Fairy Swallow. You've caught me out with American references, the one continent I have yet to get a good Field Guide for... any suggestions.

I think it a very reasonable strategy to look to our big brother to the west and agree on some standards. After all, nearly all of our native species are Australian in origin, and any future self-introductions will invariably be Australian in origin (except Frankie). Being different for the sake of being different: if the Australians do it they must be wrong? Or even if they're not wrong, then we ought to be wrong so noone mistakes us for them? - god forbid.

Ok. Theres no right and wrong when it comes to popular names. Although as a young(ish) birder myself, I could see more benefits having available to our next generation of enthusiasts some names that make sense rather than confuse... again my Spur-winged Plover gripe pops its head up.

A final note about the comments on a another thread about statistics being misleading.
Probably the same for these never ending pop psychology profundities that get thrown around willy-nilly.
I don't see how it applies. Please enlighten me.

[Wynston Cooper]

Latin (or latinised) names define species for scientific purposes. Common names tend to be regionally applied and to me are neither wrong nor right. What right have we of European descent to demand that an "english" common name take precedence over a long used local name. (In the case of Australia, the indigenous Australians/aborigines/Koori [call them what you will] have occupied the country for some 60,000 years; Europeans for less than 250 years).

As to using "Grey gerygone" as the common name for Gerygone igata, how many people would pronounce it correctly? I have heard it pronounced as "gerry-gone", "jerry- gone", "jer-rig-on-ee", "ger-rig-on-ee", "jah-rig-on-ee", and now today "geri-gone-ee"! Then there once was once my favourite, " grey ger ... jer ... er ... What do you call it locally?''.

Even the meaning of "Gerygone" is uncertain. That it is derived from Greek is without doubt, but I have seen its explained as:
1. Coming from the Greek gerugonos = "echoes" (geruo, "to sing"; gone, "a child") which apparently refers to the birds perceived "thin, plaintive song".
2. Coming from the Greek geros, "sound", gone, "echo" = "born of sound".
Both Greek meanings standup in that, to some at least, the species does have a somewhat thin plaintive song, while most people tend to find it by first hearing its song. For my part though I consider its song to be a surprisingly strong trill, thereby fitting the Oxford English Dictionary definition of "warble".

Interestingly, it seems that Maori didn't agree on a name either. It being variously recorded as "igata" (Gray & Dieffenbach 1843), "piripiri" (Potts 1882), and the currently generally accepted "riroriro" (Hutton 1871).

If we want to be totally accurate shouldn't we give it a fully descriptive name along the lines of "the bird with the pinkish-waistcoat, chocolate cap, blue 'Raybans', that has a wonderful trill which, to some, sounds like a slightly off key musical scale"!

For my part I'll stick with Grey Warbler!

Similar arguments can no doubt also be made for the other species listed in the first post.

Wynston Cooper

[Neil Fitzgerald]

As to using "Grey gerygone" as the common name for Gerygone igata, how many people would pronounce it correctly? I have heard it pronounced as "gerry-gone", "jerry- gone", "jer-rig-on-ee", "ger-rig-on-ee", "jah-rig-on-ee", and now today "geri-gone-ee"! Then there once was once my favourite, " grey ger ... jer ... er ... What do you call it locally?''.

If they can't pronounce the common name, they won't be able to pronounce the scientific name. Surely pronunciation difficulty doesn't invalidate a scientific name, so what bearing should it have on common?

[Wynston Cooper]

Because most people, including those that use this forum, prefer to use the common rather than scientific names.

Wynston Cooper

[Neil Fitzgerald]

Many gardeners say they don't know/like scientific names, without even realising that many of the 'common' names they are so fond of are in fact exactly the same as the scientific

We use words to identify objects and pass on information to others as unambiguously as possible. Well, usually. I think the bird name argument comes down to who you intended audience is. If an international scientific journal, you probably want to use the most widely accepted current scientific name. Call a bird 'kereru' and most NZ birders will know what you mean, but you might cause offense up north so use 'kukupa' instead. A farmer down Ohura way, or a birder visiting from across the ditch might better understand 'New Zealand pigeon', while 'illegal tegel' might not be out of place in a satirical column.
Web forums and listservers usually fall somewhere in the casual-international arena, so I think the most widely understood common name usually suits. That it, if you want to convey a message as clearly as possible. If that is not your intention, call it whatever you like.