Obviously incorrect reports on eBird

[Finn Davey]

Well Feral Geese are just Domestic Greylags (Anser anser domesticus)

Same thing as feral/domestic cats.
Feral just implying it's the domestic variant/subspecies but just having a sustaining wild population

[Jan]

I think you are missing the point. eBird uses wild species names. So domestic versions of wild species should not be given the wild species taxonomic description.
We don't record domestic ducks as Anas sp. or domestic chooks as Gallus whatever.
Why are domestic geese/feral, given the specific name of their antecedents?

[Raewyn]

I've always felt that the handling of feral birds is odd, but it does seem consistent for the waterfowl:

Greylag Goose (Domestic type) Anser anser (Domestic type)
Muscovy Duck (Domestic type) Cairina moschata (Domestic type)
Mallard (Domestic type) Anas platyrhynchos (Domestic type)

And for most other fowl:
Red Junglefowl (Domestic type) Gallus gallus (Domestic type)
Helmeted Guineafowl (Domestic type) Numida meleagris (Domestic type)

But then for these birds the only choices are the wild versions, even though they can be feral/domestic forms or cross breeds:
Wild Turkey Meleagris gallopavo
Ring-necked Pheasant Phasianus colchicus

And, coming back to geese, there is no provision for Cape Barren geese, which can be domestic escapees, or occasional vagrants; or the breeds of geese derived from the Asiatic swan goose, Anser cygnoides, eg African goose and Chinese goose. (When I was a teenager, my parents' collection included a Cape Barren and a Chinese goose, neither of which ever escaped.)

I agree that it would be very rare to see a feral goose that wasn't originally derived from Anser anser over the last 2000 years, but it is possible.
As an aside, most feral geese seem to show a Pilgrim goose facial pattern but as soon as they cross breed, they can lose the sex-linked white male/coloured female pattern. There are plenty of white-only breeds, and only three breeds that I know of that do have the sex-linked colour. Most domestic geese have male geese the same colour as the female.

[RussCannings]

Thanks for this 'feral' discussion all. Certainly something that has been discussed and continues to be discussed in NZ ebird circles. For one, NZ is in a somewhat unique situation with our plethora of introduced species that make up a significant chunk of our avifauna. Debating the finer points of a domesticated duck in Canada for example would be considered an irrelevant anomaly however here there is certainly room for a wider discussion.

For those that are unaware, ebird has "Domestic-type" designations for many of the game/waterfowl species that are commonly kept in captivity and released/escaped. These can be entered on eBird but do not count as a full species (e.g. They wouldn't add a number to your list). Then in some cases where domestic birds have established wild populations in various parts of the world (e.g. Muscovy Duck and Rock Pigeon), they have been given an "Established Feral" tag which distinguishing them from the natural wild population but also counts as a tick on a list etc.

This is where the NZ discussion can come in. Do we want to have an "Established Feral" tag for genuine wild populations of our Domestic Greylags? This species appears on the official NZ list as well as our fieldguides so it would seem that the status quo would indeed warrant that. The reason we allow "Greylag Goose" as an option on NZ ebird is for that very purpose--for the WILD birds. The fat-bottomed farm-dumps, most commonly seen in urban parks are then given the 'domestic-type' tag. Does everyone use or agree on this system at the moment? No, however I would argue it's not that important in the wider scheme of things as few people will be studying the feral geese stats in NZ I would imagine.

Since species like Helmeted Guineafowl and Feral Chicken are not considered an established part of our mainland's avifauna (and are therefore not tickable)--the current practise on eBird is to enter them as "Domestic type"--this allows you to include it on a checklist where you feel a population is worth monitoring, but it is not included as a species on your personal list or on the list of a given hotspot or region.

So we can propose more "Domestic-type" options to ebird HQ (and "Established Feral"). Either way, we will want to make sure we are communicating about how best to use each term. At the end of the day, as I've said, I don't see it as high on the list of priorities, but it's a simple enough conversation to have to be sure.

Wild Turkey and Ring-necked Pheasant--at least they are mostly wild phenotypes and well established in many regions. Both of these species have introduced populations elsewhere in the world and the basic name (ie Not the domestic tag) is commonly used there (e.g. Australia or North America). If you see a white one or suspect a bird/group you are seeing is domesticated or recently released, then you do have the "domestic-type" option you can use on eBird.

Russ

[Jan]

There are people interested in populations of feral geese, particularly where they are getting large and mingling with Canada Geese. At te Waihora/lake Ellesmere domestic geese are getting more numerous all the time and may be having an effect on pasture, water quality and who knows what. Personally I don't think they should should be called Greylag Geese as many of the males are white still, which is a domestic trait. Do we want another tickable bird on the list? [Feral chickens are also in fieldguides but are not tickable] Or do we want more increase in farmyard birds gone feral that cause problems in the environment?

[RussCannings]

Hi Jan,

You are right that feral geese populations are a valid concerns in many corners of the country. I'm not sure if that would be significantly impacted by the name designations on ebird however. There are indeed several game species in the Robertson fieldguide that are no longer on the official NZ list so this is a constantly evolving situation.

From an eBird perspective, we are trying to find a balance between monitoring real bird populations in the wild (regardless of official NZ listing standards), and not also accepting records that are clearly not part of wild populations (e.g. Escaped budgies, pinioned Cape Barren Geese etc).

As far as listing interest vs the environment, I don't think that's really a debate? Acclimatisation Societies notwithstanding, I don't think NZ twitchers are actively working to create/increase feral bird populations.

Russ

[Jan]

Your last sentence is very interesting! Brent and Sav have often advocated for feral chickens to be on the list, maybe a bit mischievously I would like to think. As we have so few species here, compared to almost any other country, we are always on the outlook for something, anything, even a mammal.....to boost our species list, I reckon.

[RussCannings]

Fair enough Jan,

I think there's a clear difference though between wanting to 'tick' a particular species, and actively promoting the establishment and growth of a feral population. In other words, I don't think Brent or any birder is out there releasing junglefowl at the roadside and dropping off grain (and I know that Sav will be seeing red being associated with chickens in any way lol).

Russ

[sav]

Your last sentence is very interesting! Brent and Sav have often advocated for feral chickens to be on the list, maybe a bit mischievously I would like to think. As we have so few species here, compared to almost any other country, we are always on the outlook for something, anything, even a mammal.....to boost our species list, I reckon.

Jan,
You will be hearing from my lawyers. Libel is still a crime, and I have NEVER (not even mischievously) advocated for bloody chickens to be tickable!! Russ is dead right.
yours, through a red mist,

[Jan]

Oops, yours, most abjectly apologetically