Native v exotic parrots (from ring-necked parakeets topic)

[Steps]

In spite of Docs best efforts they seem to be hanging on.

Doc realy needs to get rid of these, they, lorries and rosella have a huge impact on our native species, espec our smaller parrots like the kakariki...in my books a far bigger impact than possums stoats rats etc
If the guys down their cant deal to them they should call in a couple of the DoC guys from Auckland to sort it out.


Admin Edit: This topic has been split from http://www.birdingnz.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=911

[harrier.talon]

Hi Steps,
Just wanted to post a friendly question as to why you feel that lorikeets, rosellas and ring-necked parrots may pose more of a threat than animals such as stoats and possums to our kakariki species?
Prior to human occupation of NZ the numbers of kakariki present in our forests were likely to have been far more plentiful than they presently are. Sure these introduced parrots will be competing for nest cavities and some of the same food sources, but can this be more significant than the direct impact of degradation of habitat and considerable predation?
Maybe these are hard to quantify and compare. I just thought that I would throw a few ideas out there.

I welcome your comments on this
From Andrew

[Steps]

Prior to human occupation of NZ the numbers of kakariki present in our forests were likely to have been far more plentiful than they presently are.

When one reads thru old diaries of early settlers, travellrs etc....observations, issues with raiding of gardens, etc kakariki espec the red crown where not just in the forest and scattered populations...they where around sort of the same as sparrows, thrushes and black birds...And when one is overseas in Aussie for instance, similar parrots are in urban areas.

Sure these introduced parrots will be competing for nest cavities and some of the same food sources, but can this be more significant than the direct impact of degradation of habitat and considerable predation?

There you have it...The older hollow trees and other suitable nesting places are not in the numbers before milling and clearing for gold mining etc....We have our moepork that is quite an aggressiove bird, more so than ring necks rosella red rumps...they can compete for these spots.....But as anyone who breeds captive birds knows, a kakariki due to its nature to intimidate rather than be agressive has no chance to compete with these agressive birds
If one takes places like Walkworth/Lee area, that had/have stoats possums rats etc in the 1920s, kakariki floriushed rather well, and was to some degree a bit of a pest....Then the rossella , a prolific breeder like the kakariki, started to take over the terrortory....numbers dropped dramatically so by the 50s and 60s, to this day only a couple small flocks surive.

I do not buy into the full on possum stoat issue...I do not despote it, fully support the 1080 program...I am certain many of our native species , including kakariki if introduced into small urban reserves, parks will surive in spite of the vermon. But combine the vermon with agressive exortic species...and that is where the issue lays.
This is therory....based on my personal experiance of many years with kakariki..living with them, and exortic parrot species, a lot of experimentation...(they get their heads chopped of anyway) old diaries and stories of old farmers, and off the record chats with some DoC grassroots people.

I was up at the visitors center in the Waitaks the other weekend....t5hey have a huge problem with sparroes nesting in the rafters and stuff.....
So I ask the question, would they object if they where kakatiki?
Why not put nesting boxes up there for kakariki?
Even go to the extent to pair up kakariki, have them go to nest, and sit on eggs in capitivity....trap the kakariki inside, transport the whole nesting box, screw it to the pillar and pull the rag out of the nesting box hole?
reasons why not
1/The current captive population of kakariki is unacceptable to DoC...justified in some cases.
2/The berocatic BS one has to go thru to get wild acceptable stock...and at the end of the day, it will not happen.
3/The yrs of reseach committe meetings to even get the plan thought about...and very unlikely to be approved.
4/I can not happen because if we have to many of our native species in uncontrolled vermon areas, the extra food will cause a population expolsion in the vermon...yet all we are doing is replacing the exortic species that have a balance with the vermon population anyway...(that logic is very flawed)
Bottom line..if it work it works if it doesnt will need a slight modification...if using capitive stock, they ar going to get their heads chopped off anyway.
If it works....thats a huge feather in the Cap of conservation in NZ, DoC
This concept is not limited to kakariki....mass breeding of alsorts of species and release.


I supose it is a matter personal; taste....would we like to have a flock of rosella or ring necks fly thru our towns or cities, Or have a flock of kakariki settle in ones back lawn like sparrows, blackbirds and thrushes do now....with the added advantage of them naturally freindly and tame, to have your children and grandchildren hand feed them?
Bit of a pain for you guys with camaras thu...hard to take close up pics with a kakariki sitting on the camera..I kid you not.

[Tim Barnard]

I'm not making a defence for exotics here ... but I would be interested to see any papers or research on the impact of rosellas on the ecology of kakariki. From what I remember, and admittedly its based on European literature, exotics such as parakeets do best in suburban and peri-urban environments i.e. highly modified - adapting to mature forest environments can be a different matter entirely ...

Do you have anything Neil??

[Steps]

I'm not making a defence for exotics here

Thats understood....lets face it if we had kaka, kakariki and many of our other native species restored back in 'bulk' we would be unique and as such have a great pride in our birdlife than we do....
I Also wish to be forgiven for maybe a wrong impression.....I love NZ bird life..all of it, but land birds a bit more than sea birds....I mention kakariki a lot....only because I love these little birds, and have had them since the early 80s....
I specialise in them as others do with budgies or finches or African Greys.....Even our Kings and Crimsons, we breed, but its hit an miss, simply because I love my kakariki, and would also love other native birds as much, IF I was allowed to keep them.

... but I would be interested to see any papers or research on the impact of rosellas on the ecology of kakariki.

I belive there is a couple papers re rosella and how they go to nest early in the season compared to NZ native birds.\
Suprisinly before Luis Ortiz-Catedral in the last 4 or 5 yrs, there is very little research.....and what there is is very often basically flawed, from diet as mentioned before , to social behavour and such.
The other thing that makes reasearch difficult, as with rossella, we do not have the flocks/population of kakariki.
What we do need is bulk produce them, release in urban parks, reserves, have local high school students keep tab on them every so often, see what happens, what works and what doesnt......Or put another way, formalise what private breeders have known and experimemted with over the last 50 or 60 yrs+
Once apon a time, decades of experiance, experimentation was resected, acknowledged, even without a string of letters after ones name....Now give a guy a few letters after his name, a pen and paper, a pair of bonoculars, and what ever he says is taken as gosple simple because those peering the paper realy have no idea anyway.....and those who have been experimenting, every day for decades, if they question, they are either ignored or sent to conventry.

And that is basically why the orange kakariki is one of the rarest birds in NZ...even the world, and the tax payer is spending huge sums restoring them after DoC killed of large populations.....AND why early in the breeding program there where setbacks that almost destoried the whole project perminently.

This sort of thing is not just kakariki..it goes right across the board..off the record..If anyone calls a spade a spade..like me, a lot of ex DoC people poping up, and ex Forest and Bird..doesnt always follow the normal bearocratic /politically wise line of thought, but rather that of basic common sence and experiance....they are ignored...

IF at the very early stages of the organe kakariki program, the suggestions of 2 of us experianced kakariki breeders was followed...from 6 pair either out of the wild or raised from chicks, in the 1st yr we would have produced over 100 chicks to adults nett (thats top healthy birds) and in the2nd yrs well over 200....at less than $15 per bird cost to the taxpayer...ready for release. then follow our instructions on shipping up to 36 hrs, NIL death rate.
I wonder what the number of orange kakariki at this piont in time has been...and wonder how much they have spent per bird?
Like I say, the reply to "Can you do it?" is rather "how many 100 do you want in the 2st season?"

[Clinton9]

Hi members who reading about ring-necked parakeets,
Please leave these ring-necked parakeets alone as they are total harmless birds. Their numbers are too small and cannot get bigger, because they only rear 1-2 chicks per year.
Crimson rosellas are extinct in Wellington now. Our native parrots as forest parrots Kakas and Apline parrots Kea are rather duller coloured and uninteresting to look at. Kakas are bigger than Ring-necked parakeets & could easily throw parakeets out of their nest holes, while meat-loving Keas will BBQ on parakeets & exotic parrots.
Morkpork (our native owl) will fight to keep their nest holes from ring-necked parakeets.
Stoats & ship rats will eat the chicks of ring-necked parakeets.
Don't tell DOC about ring-necked parakeets.
Treat them as for Eastern rosellas.
Cheers

Clinton.

Ring-necked parakeets:
Diet: seeds, nuts, leaves, berries, flowers.
Breed once a year.
2 eggs per year.
1 juvenile flying with parent parakeets per year.
Stoats, ship rats, feral cats will eat adults & chicks.
Start breeding at 3 year old.

[Steps]

Breed once a yr??? try 2 to 3 times a yr

Kakas are bigger than Ring-necked parakeets & could easily throw parakeets out of their nest holes,

Thats an assumption...if you breed a small kakariki in with a king or crimson that are much larger one would assume the king would be still the dominate bird....wrong...its not always about size, its about their nature once they start to go to nest. If the kings are also going to nest, kakariki will loose out.

while meat-loving Keas will BBQ on parakeets & exotic parrots.

Im under the impression kea, like kakariki favour carrion rather than live meat.
Also ring necks like suphurcrested, galha are great chewing birds, so one can expect possum like damage to trees.

So what you are suggesting is just leave them be, wait till they establish a resonable flock(s) ..and when that happens forget anything else breeding, then spend a fortune that could be spent far better else where, eliminating the problem...all because some think they are more pretty
Personally I prefer kakariki, kaka over a ring neck for personality , charactor, intelegence and good looks.

[Clinton9]

Breed once a yr??? try 2 to 3 times a yr

Kakas are bigger than Ring-necked parakeets & could easily throw parakeets out of their nest holes,

Thats an assumption...if you breed a small kakariki in with a king or crimson that are much larger one would assume the king would be still the dominate bird....wrong...its not always about size, its about their nature once they start to go to nest. If the kings are also going to nest, kakariki will loose out.

while meat-loving Keas will BBQ on parakeets & exotic parrots.

Im under the impression kea, like kakariki favour carrion rather than live meat.
Also ring necks like suphurcrested, galha are great chewing birds, so one can expect possum like damage to trees.

So what you are suggesting is just leave them be, wait till they establish a resonable flock(s) ..and when that happens forget anything else breeding, then spend a fortune that could be spent far better else where, eliminating the problem...all because some think they are more pretty
Personally I prefer kakariki, kaka over a ring neck for personality , charactor, intelegence and good looks.

Kakas are forest parrots, with brown plumages and lives in New Zealand. They are pigeon-sized birds.
During breeding season Kaka can be aggressive, that in 1985 the mother kaka landed on male zookeeper and were going to bite him as I watched the kaka before I left the zoo.
Kakas know how to deal with other birds, but they do not know how to deal with stoats (mammals) and femake kakas lost their lives when stoats entered their nest holes.
When Yellow-fronted parakeets (kakariki) looking for nest holes and find a bigger nest hole, they had be careful in entering the nest hole. If Kaka see them at nest hole, they yell loudly at them and chase them away and also attack the birds if they enter their nest hole.

Unlike Kakas, the Yellow-fronted parakeets and Red-fronted parakeets are colourful and interesting to watch, with green plumages and rich blue outer webs of primary flight feathers and either yellow or red crown & ear coverts.

Keas are apline parrots, with dark olive plumage, and confined to mountains of South Island. Keas are slightly bigger than Kakas, but unlike Kakas, Keas are only New Zealand's biggest colourful parrots, with orange rump, red underwing, blue primary flight feathers and yellow spots on underside flight feathers. Unlike Kakas that rarely flies in open, Keas often delights in flies in open air. Kakas usually flies in forests, often at nighttime and in wintertime during days.
They do kill the chicks of seasbirds called Hutton's shearwater and they do (rarely) tries to catch the birds, since their diet are varied, both plants and meats. They eat carrions they find, usually dead mammals.
Fledling birds are not safe from Keas if they lives with 1 mile from Keas.
If keas see an escaped ring-necked parakeet, they might fly to have a look at the parakeet, and if keas are in moult season and there are too few meats to feed all keas, they will try to catch the parakeet, but parakeet is a faster flier and usualy get away.

That will take about 20 years for numbers of Ring-necked parakeets to reach 30 or 40 birds, because the 3 year-old birds have problems to face...being dive bombed by white-backed magpies (Australian magpies) and tui (New Zealand honeyeater, related to aggressive Red Honeyeater of Australia) and nest holes are few between & scattered widely and Eastern rosellas, New Zealand Kingfishers, Indian Mynas, Yellow-fronted parakeets will defend their nest holes.

Once they rear their 2 chicks, if the stoats or ship rats enter the nest holes, and eat the chicks, the young parent parakeets will not breed again until next year, also they (parakeets) may not have fledling chicks that reach flying stage until they are 5 or 6 years old as it take skills in finding a nest hole not reachable to mammals and how to fight off the other birds from take over their nest holes.
Shortage of nesting holes, opussums, rats, stoats help keep numbers of exotic parrots low in New Zealand.

Hence I said leave them alone & don't tell DOC about Ring-necked parakeets.

Regards

Clinton.

personally I prefterred macaws, eclectus parrots, lories, lorikeets and exotic parrots as they are colourful and intelligent and more interesting than native parrots.

[Steps]

Shortage of nesting holes, opussums, rats, stoats help keep numbers of exotic parrots low in New Zealand.

That somes it up really....it also applies to endangered native birds....logic doesnt wear with me.
Sulphur crest breed even slower...hit the back blocks out Glen murry, see the destruction, and the magnificant 'waterfalls in the disrance which happen to be the birds roosting for the night...Ws dont need to be in that position in our life time AND limit breeding of NZ endangered species.

that in 1985 the mother kaka landed on male zookeeper and were going to bite him as I watched the kaka before I left the zoo.

You need to go to a Zoo to see it......I experiance it in my own backyard many times every yr.

There is only one way to know about birds..its not from books, or casual oberservation...it is from living with, co habit on a daily basis for yrs...Have kakariki breeding 2 m away from your coffee table, 8m away from you office desk...this one...A flock of 20 plus outside you bedroom window.

And a kaka is quite bit bigger than the common pidgen.

[Clinton9]

Hi Steps Quote,
I noticed you seem to had interesting knowlegles about bird life.
Where are you lives ??? I had a feeling you seem to have native parrots living near your property.
Do you have wild yellow-fronted parakeets and Kakas living in forest almost next door to your house ???
Had you ever seen the rarer red-fronted parakeets in wild ???
I had seen a wild red-fronted parakeet in mid 1980s at Kelston school when I were a boy.
I'm interested to hear from you.
Are you a bird-man ???

I'm a bird-man with knowlegle about bird life.

Clinton.